Joining the Army to Pay Off Student Loan Debt

Should I Join the Military to Pay Off My Student Loan Debt?

This is the question that many ask.  I, too, wondered if I should join the military after school.  I decided that I did not want to give up the time I had with my wife, but probably would have if I was single.  The reality is that many graduates, of both undergrad and law school are giving up civilian life in order to pay off their loans, make a living, and have a secure job.

Man Joins the Army to Pay Off Student Loans

Source:  Above The Law

Money Quote: 

McGregor graduated from law school in May 2008, passed the Minnesota state bar and was sworn in as an attorney in late October.

He was convinced he’d get a “good job right away,” circulating his resume and taking an unpaid internship at a legal aid clinic. Later that year, he went back to work for his family’s roofing distribution business, where he had worked every summer for 13 years.

He was licensed to practice law, but he was driving a forklift and managing roofing material orders for $15 an hour, no benefits.

“I’d load up the pick-up truck or unload returns, it was pretty much manual labor,” he said. And his $1,200 a month student loan bills began to pile up….

“I was just being realistic. I’d be paying those loans off forever and I knew interest compounding would make (the total) go up,” McGregor said. “I couldn’t think of any better options.”

Does this mean that every law graduate is doomed to have the same fate that McGregor had regarding not finding legal work?  No, it does not.  However, what it does mean is that you should keep all options open, just as McGregor said.  Truth is, however, that many will just sit at home and whine instead of enlisting, because it's more comfortable to live with mother and father.



"I risked my life to pay off $108,000 in student loans"

Source: CNN Money

His first convoy in Iraq was attacked by an RKG-3, a Russian anti-tank hand grenade. He and his colleagues were regularly fired upon in Afghanistan. One of his buddies lost his legs to land mines. He also lost friends in Afghanistan.

 I feel that this article is trying to add some shock to the fact that the military is dangerous.  But so is civilian life.  For example, living with mother and father for long periods of time after adulthood destroys the mind.   If you don't believe me, check out JD Underground.

Also, one has to remember that with high pay and job security, there comes risk.  I come from a family with a few military men and women.  Let me just say that most got a great amount of satisfaction out of their jobs.  Is the military for everyone?  No.  But, that does not mean that you should discount the idea of joining.  Plus, it's probably a lot more fun and rewarding than Big Law.

Of course, the Above the Law article forgot to mention the following:

[McGreagor] was only required to be active in the Army three years, but he liked it so much that he stayed. When he leaves the Army, he'll be subject to be recalled for eight years, if the Army needs him.

He said he has no regrets.

"Joining the Army is something people can only decide for themselves," he said. "It was a great opportunity. . . I don't think any other job would be close to this."

World News: July, 17 2013

Tainted Food In India Kills 22 Children

Source: BBC News

Money Quote: 

There have been violent protests in the Indian state of Bihar after 22 children died and dozens more fell sick after eating a tainted free school meal.

Four police vehicles were set on fire in Dharmasati Gandaman in Saran district during the protests by parents and hundreds of villagers.

A doctor at the local hospital said a chemical used in pesticides is likely to be the cause of the contamination.

Note to self: When in India (I hope to be going within the next couple of years), don't eat at the schools.

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Six U.S. States affected by "Valley Fever"
Source: BBC News

Money Quote:

The tiny city of 14,000 people, nestling in a dip in the floor of the San Joaquin Valley, California, is what experts refer to as a "hot zone" for coccidioidomycosis - an illness caused by the inhalation of tiny fungal spores that usually reside in the soil. 

Described by the Centers for Disease Control as a silent epidemic, 22,401 new infections were recorded across the US in 2011, mostly in the south-west, up tenfold from 1998.
Although two-thirds of those infected suffer no symptoms, and the illness is not contagious, about 160 people die each year when the fungus spreads beyond the lungs to the brain.

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More Law Schools Cutting Faculty Jobs
Source: Above the Law

Money Quote:

All of the untenured professors (of Seton Law) received notice that their contracts might not be renewed for the 2014-2015 academic year.

Opinion:  Law school cutbacks could be a good thing.  The amount of lawyers in the United States currently is, arguably, too high.  There is reform needed.  Schools are graduating too many students.  Does this make law a bad field?  No.  Does this make schools seem somewhat opportunistic?  Of course.  Law schools are merely doing what any large business would do -- making as much money as they can.  Of course, there are ethical ramifications about pumping the economy with too many law grads.  However, if everyone else is doing it, does it matter that additional schools follow suit?

1. The law school has given notice to its entire junior faculty, approximately seven untenured professors, that their contracts might not be renewed for 2014-2015.

2. The affected professors will be able to teach for the 2013-2014 academic year, but could be terminated after that.

3. As part of a larger effort to streamline the law school and control costs, these notices have been issued to preserve all of the administration’s options.

4. But the notices could ultimately be rescinded — and the administration hopes to be able to rescind them, provided it can find the needed savings elsewhere within its budget.

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Law School Admissions Officer Promises More Scholarships than Law School Had Allotted For

Source:  courier-journal

Money Quote:

The former admissions director for University of Louisville’s Brandeis School of Law — who in 2012 promised incoming students about $2.4 million more in scholarships than the school had allotted — has been indicted in the case, on a charge of unlawfully accessing a university computer. 

Brandon Lane Hamilton, who resigned last July after the irregularities were discovered, is to be arraigned next Monday on the charge, a felony that carries a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a fine of up to $10,000.

Opinion:  This sounds a lot like my ex brother-in-law giving carpet away when he worked for a carpet installing cartel.  The cartel did not look upon the brother-in-law with favor and he was ousted.  He did not go to prison for it however.  He went to prison for another reason - impregnating my sister-in-law, something he was not allowed to do.  As a registered sex offender, the state had told him "stop getting women pregnant!"  He did not want to listen.

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McDonalds Tells Employees How They Can Afford to Live Off Minimum Wage

Source:  Lawyers,Guns, & Money

Interesting Comment:

But it gets pretty ridiculous when old white men want to control womens’ bodies and force them to have babies they can’t take care of. Ultimately, this is pretty ridiculous, but you have to be open-minded enough to apply it to the real issues in America. 

No person should have to hold down two jobs. The ultimate slap in the face is to have earned a degree yet have to put up with a budget like this.
Nvm the fact that McDonald’s allows a credit organization to steal your hard-earned money.

My Opinion:  I could live off this.  In fact, I have lived off less.  But, I must admit, 62 hours of work a week for $2,060 seems a bit harsh.  What is the point in the extra $800 spending money if you don't have time to actually enjoy it?

I say, work enough to just get the budget right, put that $100 in savings, and stop short of the extra $800.  McDonalds may be on to something by giving its employees a budget to go by, but there is perhaps a better way.  For example, show employees how to live frugally, take public transit instead of driving, get a roommate instead of renting a solo apartment, get the lazy bum of a spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend to get a job of his/her own to help supplement the income, and get on public assistance if needed. 

Furthermore, get rid of that cable/phone.  There is no reason to be blowing $100 a month on cable/phone when netflix is $10 a month for streaming and phone can be free with the Obama Phone (which I, too, have).

Why I went to Law School

Many people wonder why I went to law school.  Was it to play around on Sallie Mae's dime for three years, travel the world, and kick back and relax?  Or was it to better myself with the hope that I would one day get a legal job and make enough money to pay back my loans? 

It was the latter.

One of my professors, during my 1L year lauded me for being "one of the few that actually took law school seriously."  He wrote me a letter of recommendation when I landed a spot in the top 18% of my class and transferred to a higher ranked school in New York.  The truth was, I did take law school seriously, and I wanted to be as good as I could be, so I could get a good job, pay back my loans, and provide a good income to support my wife and myself.

Then I came across the scamblogs.  The whiners stated that law school was a fraud, the deans were tricksters and it was all a lie!  I wondered if they were right as I read their whine parade.  I wondered why people would spend their days posting on the internet instead of doing something to better themselves.  Of course, I took offense to this.  I wanted nothing to do with these cretins! 

During law school I did my best to keep my skills sharp.  I was involved in internships and clinics.  I had a mentor.  I kept this blog as a way to tell others that you don't have to be depressed about law school.  However, those who ran the scamblogs were quite angry at me.  They said I should just throw in the towel, drop out, and pretty much whine on the internet all the time.

I did not want to do that.

So what, I took a few trips during law school?  I paid for many of these myself.  Further, my trips were not just for pleasure.  I made a money off of them.  For example, I created a website based on my trip to Puerto Rico which brings me a nice bit of income, and will eventually pay that trip back.  I purchased goods for resale in Egypt and will be selling those at a flea market in the next couple of weeks.  I also sublet my apartment while I was out.  Yet, those who criticize me have no idea how these things work.  "How do I mix pleasure with income production," they ask.  "Is that even possible?!" they lament.  Instead, they sit on an internet forum and tell everyone else that they are better than everyone else.  What a wretched way to live. 

People on the internet act like they know everyone else so well, but they do not.  We all come from vastly different backgrounds.  I came from a poor family.  I had the choice to either do little with my life or strive to make myself as good as I could be.  I may never pay back my debt.  I may have to rely on IBR my whole life.  That is not my main plan, but it is a back up plan.  It is a hell of a lot better than having no back up plan or not paying back my loans.  How many people are in default on their loans and pay nothing?  I will not do that. 

Some mistakenly believe that if you are from a poor background you have no right to go to law school.  These elitist individuals should be avoided at all costs.  Their way of thinking is toxic and destructive.  If you spend your time taking what they have to say in this regard seriously, you will only destroy yourself.  That way of thinking is archaic and disgusting, vile at best.  As a human being, your background does not matter.  You are what matters.  I have always known that I was not my parent, nor was I the person who failed.  I was a different person, with a chance to succeed.  Some people will hate that.  I am sorry if you hate me because you wish you did something different in your life.  One thing I have realized is that those who hate others hate themselves more.  What bothers one about another person is something that they find true about themselves. 

I will continue to strive to make myself better as long as I live.  I hope to one day pay off all my student loans, and I plan to.

And with that being said, I will not explain my reasons for law school or be forced to defend myself on this blog again.  One should NOT have to explain oneself for trying to better oneself or pursuing a degree in law or any other field.

First thoughts Re: Esqspot.com

Craigslist Ad for EsqSpot.com

There are a lot of "social" ways out there to get legal jobs.  The first one I found was JD Match.  I used this site a while back and didn't have much luck with it.  I always wondered if it was the kind of site that helped people from the Elite schools (such as Georgetown) more than those from lesser known schools.  Also, I figured that it was the kind of place that mainly existed for those who were on law review or were in the top 10-15% of their class.  As such I never heard back.

Today I was looking at Craigslist for part time jobs to get me by until I move back to the west coast.  I came across this ad here.  I posted a picture above, but will also post the text below for those who are having trouble reading it:

Are you an attorney or a legal professional looking for your next job or a way to advance your career in the legal field? Opportunities will not come knocking and sending out your resume with thousands of others on Craigslist will not help. You should be networking, meeting other legal professionals, and making personal connections!

Join Esqspot.com, a new online community of legal professionals. Esqspot is built with the goal of establishing a real community exclusively for legal professionals, where members can find career opportunities, refer cases, ask questions, get advice, share knowledge and support each other. We are also hosting joint live networking events with NYCLA and The Brooklyn Bar Association to give our members a chance to meet and network with other legal professionals in person.

Membership is absolutely FREE and there are no point systems or limitation of any kind, just an open platform for sharing and supporting each other. There are now over 500 legal professionals on Esqspot!

Join today and post your availability and resume in the "Jobs" forum to get noticed by other attorneys. You will greatly increase your chances of finding your next carer opportunity. And since its free, you have nothing to lose!

Sign up at Esqspot.com.

Anyway, here is a picture of the website of Esqspot.  It seems like it's a social network for law students.  Think LinkedIn or Facebook, but for those holding a coveted Juris Doctorate.  Now, I wonder how valuable such a site will be.  Keep in mind, I gave up LinkedIn a while back, as I found no use for it as a law student.  I still think that LinkedIn is highly dubious and have no plans on going back.

I also noticed that Esqspot is hosting a "midsummer's eve party."  I am not a very social person, so there's no way I would go to something like this.  I can't help but wonder what kind of individuals will be here.  Will it be law grads who are still looking for work, big time Cardozo top 10%ers or those who are stroking their Columbia educated egos?  Or perhaps it's mostly future 1Ls and summer students? 

Thinking about the site, and the fact that they want you to sign up using your Twitter, Facebook or LinkedIn account, I doubt I will join.  Social Networks generally do not get people jobs.  Instead, I am a firm believer that it's making connections and creating tailored resumes and cover letters that land people jobs.  Also, volunteering your time and getting skills helps.  Sitting around on the internet poking people over a social network will do you very little in the end.

Why I am now a Law School Shill‏

Ok, this one is serious: I officially change my colors and announce that I henceforth will be a law school shill. I no longer wish to expose the law school scam, but rather to hide it, cover it up, distract and blame others for it. This may be shocking to many of you, especially our tenured readers. Allow me to explain my change of heart and mind, so I am not second-guessed. Do not attempt to persuade me otherwise, I am resolved to do what is right. 

The problem is the "scam", as the others on here refer to a solid legal education, has been so exposed already, and is now so obvious of its true nature, that it is hardly even a scam anymore. You may have read the increasing number of comments that go like this: "If anyone graduates after [sometime after the commenter graduated], they deserve what they get. Back in [when the commenter matriculated] nobody would have known, but now they should, so too bad, so sad." I find this logic to be solid, and will count this as an unblocked roundhouse given to the scambloggers' pouty faces. 


Now, in addition to that argument, I have another, more personal: the scam is so blatant, and has been so ridiculed and left to be wondered at, that there is nothing really for me to add. Could any rational creature—rational even by partially-hairless ape standards—think that "hanging a shingle", after reading the multi-essay exposure by one of the other posters here, is a non-laughable proposition? "Hang a Shingle" is, just on sound and phrase alone, totally stupid and nonsensical. Do you Frosted Flakes™ really think that you will just graduate with $200k in non-dischargeable debt and no practical skills besides antediluvian "Shelly's Case" concepts and somehow compete with established attorneys in a dying and flooded market in the midst of a permanently "changing" (i.e., shrinking) economy? It boggles the mind that anyone could be as stupid as to think they could avoid the brutality of the legal market by "hanging a shingle". I have to say that I would rather display courage, like the real man that I am (now that I am a shill, I can say that proudly), and take the challenge of defending the scam. At this point, anyone could be a scamblogger. But who could defend the system? It takes real skill to help out the Joanie twins in their quest to keep up pretences.


You scambloggers pretend to have reason (gee, where did you learn that skill, hypocrites? LOL). How about this bit of reality for you: If everything you scambloggers say is true, then it is false. That is, there is no problem as far as law school goes, because all of its dangers are now known. For instance, if the law school promise of good employment outcomes is exposed as a lie, as it has been, then it is no longer believable because it has been exposed. So the employment stats, if true, mean there are still good outcomes for law graduates; if false, then we already knew that, thanks to suckers like you-know-who on that other blog. Anyone who relies upon an exposed lie is a fool and in a sense has victimized themselves. Fool me once, shame on you . . . but we the students have already been fooled once! 

The second time is our fault. The first round of fooling has ended, and we have told the world of how evil those big bad Joanies in Rude York city were to us and our feelings. If the "Stupid Snowflakes" (as they should really be known) still fall for it, how is that a scam? It is no more a scam than when someone jumps off the Golden Gate Bridge. It is known if you jump off the Golden Gate Bridge, you die when you hit freezing water at nearly one hundred miles per hour. If you still choose to do so, whose fault is that, but yours? Law School is like a tall bridge over shark-infested water; you could jump, but don't call it a scam. You spin the wheel, you take your chances on red or black. As far as I am concerned, the scam is over. It is now too obvious to hide behind any more excuses. The scambloggers have put themselves out of business.

Admin, shut down this site!

How I Think, and Why I Think That Way: A Struggling Law Grad's Positive Outlook on Life

Many people wonder why, with almost $300,000 in college debt and no job, how I can not be down in the dumps as they are.  There are many reasons that I am satisfied, and even thrilled, with my life, and I want to share those reasons with my readers.

First, I realize that there is so much opportunity out there for me.  I am still decently young and have a long time ahead of me.  About a decade ago I would have never imagined traveling all over the world.  In fact, I had never left the Northwestern United States where I was raised.  If someone told me I would be traveling to Europe (4x), Africa (2x), Asia (2x) and Central America (4x) in ten years, I would have thought they were crazy.  Yet, the truth was, I longed to travel, and I made it a goal of mine.  In fact, I have found that goal setting has helped me become the person who I have wanted to be and it has allowed me to do so much in life.  Yes, even go to, transfer, and graduate from law school!

Second, I want to say that I realize that there are many ways to get things done.  I can own a home on IBR.  I can purchase inexpensive land.  I can learn to build my own tiny home (see this awesome website: Tiny House Swoon).  There are so many opportunities in life for those who are willing to become creative.

Third, I have always believed in maintaining good health, eating right, and abstaining from alcohol, tobacco, and drugs.  This includes "mind drugs."  I define "mind drugs" as things that damage how one thinks.  Mind drugs are all over the internet.  Lately, however, I have found myself getting somewhat involved in mind drugs, and I have realized that they do nothing to help me.  Internet forums where people whine and lament about life have no part in a healthy adult outlook.  If you spend time reading websites where people are telling you that you can not succeed no matter what, or that you will fail, you will probably end up failing.  You have to remove yourself from that way of thinking if you want to succeed.  Pure and simple.

Forth, I am a Christian and believe in God.  As such, it would be to spit in His face to not be thankful for the life He has given me.  My life may not be completely perfect, but I have so much to be thankful for.  God has assisted in me traveling the world and I have seen firsthand the lives of other people.  I realize that many people have not seen the struggles that go on in poorer countries, and it is hard for many to realize (or even care) that others have a hard life.  However, the reality is that many U.S. citizens have it exceedingly good and have little to no cause to complain.  I do not believe that a student debtor who went to law school has any cause to complain upon graduation day.  In fact, to do so is incredibly selfish and even somewhat vile.  Of course, I have found that too many people only care about themselves and can not appreciate how well they have it in life.  Complaining on the internet, sadly, has become a sport for some, and I honestly, with all my heart, hope that some of these people can one day make it off of the couch and see the world that is beyond their living room.

I have many goals for the future and I am very excited about them.  This blog will continue to share how I go about reaching those goals while being thankful for and using my law school education.  We have been taught so much in law school and I can not let all that go to waste.  And further, I must remember that those who are vocal about and angry at law school are only a very small minority.  Most law school graduates seem very happy about their choice to go to law school, and I am sure they will continue to be, as long as they stay away from toxic sites such as the ones that I used to frequent.

Perhaps after I am finished with my current book I will write a book on why law school can be a good investment and how a positive outlook in life will help a law school grad.  Until then, please keep reading this blog and e-mail me any questions you have.  Thank you.

Horses, Wine, and Law School

Let's take a quick detour, move away from the facts and figures about student debt, false employment statistics, "professors" who have never practiced law, and misery of the profession as a whole.  Let's take a huge step back and look at law school from a more philosophical perspective.

Pretend for a moment that you’ve just won the lottery or inherited a large sum from a long-lost relative. You buy a beautiful old farm in Kentucky and you build some stables and training facilities to realize your dream of working with horses and perhaps breeding some champions.

You raise all the horses, feed them hay or oats, let them run and play in the fields, and see over time which ones respond best to more intensive training on the track.  Most will never make much of an impact on the racing world.  They’ll be sold off as horses for riding schools or to private owners, but will still lead happy horse lives.  Some will get injured, become sick, or just have bad temperaments or genetics and end up being sent to the glue factory.  But a few will succeed and do well as racehorses after all those years of hard work.  They’ll be strong and resilient, maybe win a few races or place in others, and they’ll win money and eventually be sold for a sizable profit to wealthy individuals.  Now, I’m no horse racing expert, but that sounds about right for how these kinds of stables work.

But what kind of business would you be running if one day you decided that instead of using some of the finest horses for racing, you put some of them on the truck to the glue factory along with the feeblest nags? Just throw them out, pretend that they don't exist.  Stupid, right?

Let’s try another example.  You inherit a vineyard, and you decide to continue the wine making business.  You pick all the grapes, sort them according to quality, taste, sweetness, whatever.  The worst grapes are sent to a jelly factory, or to a juice factory, or end up being turned into raisins.  You keep the good and the best grapes to use to make wine.  The good grapes will be turned into average wine, but the very best will be turned into a delicious, complex, expensive tipple that will win many awards.

This year, out of the thousand or so crates of grapes harvested, half are sub par and will be sent to make juice, just under the remaining half are better and will be turned into reasonable wine, but you have twenty crates of absolutely perfect grapes, the best of the best, enough for a small batch of premium wine.  These grapes have been lovingly nurtured over time, and their deliciousness is a result of genetics and hard work.  But instead of turning all twenty crates into the finest wine you can make, you take a few of the crates and just toss them out with the nasty ones that will get turned into fruit juice or raisins or wherever the bad grapes go.  Madness, no?

Let’s try a third scenario.  A society spends the best part of two decades educating its youth. Elementary school, middle school, high school, then college.  Most students are average and will go on to normal careers.  Some will not succeed for a variety of reasons, and they end up in jail or digging ditches or living under bridges, often being a huge drain on society.  But the very top students, those who work the hardest and who have the finest minds the education system can produce, will go to medical schools and graduate programs or work as engineers, teachers, military officers, scientists, and so forth, and will eventually become tomorrow's leaders, innovators and success stories.

Yet this society is content with taking a portion of those top students, some of the best, and throwing them out with the failures. They get sucked into law school, which produces no leaders or innovators, no benefit to society whatsoever, and there are no jobs waiting at the end.  They become debtors, tax burdens, unemployed, homeless, mentally ill from the stress of failure, too broken financially to ever do much of anything. A handful get lucky and escape, but work in law jobs that have a negative effect on society – ambulance chasers, class action trolls, divorce lawyers and so on, all of whom have the goal of generating legal fees and profiting from the misfortunes of others.

Hopefully, the point is clear.  Law is an extraordinary waste of great minds.

Charles Cooper is the author, along with Thane Messinger, of “Con Law: Avoiding...or Beating...the Scam of the Century (The Real Student's Guide to Law School and the Legal Profession)”, in addition to being the moderator at Nontradlaw.net and the author of “Later in Life Lawyers”.  He can be contacted at charlescooperauthor@gmail.com.